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Expert SEO and CRO Tips From Klaviyo’s Ecommerce Summit, Part One

Klaviyo:BOS conference notebook

As a marketer, there are only so many conferences I can attend in a year — and this year all three happened to fall within two weeks of each other. By far the best one I attended was Klaviyo: BOS, a two-day summit focused on growth tactics and business strategy for online merchants and ecommerce brands. By the end of Day 1 my notebook was swimming with underlines, stars, and arrows with multiple circles around ideas and topics I wanted to explore once I got back to my co-working space. By the end of Day 2 I was so inspired…

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Expert SEO and CRO Tips From Klaviyo’s Ecommerce Summit, Part One

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6 Inspiring Talks to Binge Watch, as Recommended by Expert Marketers

You know how word of mouth is like the Holy Grail of marketing? There’s nothing quite as powerful as someone whose opinion you trust simply saying, “hey, check this out.”

Well, the other day my colleagues and I were talking about talks: conference talks, TED Talks, university lectures, a few candid post-dinner nuggets of wisdom from a tipsy aunt. We were recommending ones we’ve found helpful or inspiring as marketers (whether the topics focused on marketing directly, or were more broadly about professional development and personal growth). Surely other marketers want to know what’s worth watching too, we thought. And nobody wants to sift through an endless YouTube haystack of “find your passion, move to Bali, start a blog, now I’m a millionaire”-style videos to find those shiny needles, right?

Luckily we have a whole list of trusted someones coming to speak at Call to Action Conference August 28-29, and gift bags to hold for ransom if they don’t answer our emails. So we went straight to the source to ask our marketing experts about their favourite talks.

Ranging from strategy to copywriting to user experience to CRO, our speakers for this August know their stuff and have made it to the top of their fields. They’re smart cookies who can suss out what’s worth listening to, and below are some of their sage suggestions. Give ‘em a look and if you have some of your own must-watch recommendations for talks you’ve loved and quote to this day, let us know in the comments!

Want to see the marketing pros featured below talk the talk? Use the code “CTAConfTalks” at checkout for 35% off all ticket prices for Unbounce’s annual conference this August.

Ross Simmonds, Digital Marketing Strategist and Founder of Hustle & Grind

Find him on Twitter:@TheCoolestCool

CTAConf 2018 Talk: Beyond Google: How to Attract Relevant Traffic Through Diverse Channels

Recommends: Conversion Copywriting and the Death of Guesswork by Joanna Wiebe

“The biggest insight I took from Joanna’s talk was the process you take people through when it comes to conversion optimization. Specifically, the importance of not leading with the project but instead leading with the pain. Start by talking about the problem and the agitations, then reveal the solution.

Runner-up: The Surprising Power of Small Habits by James Clear

“This is a great rundown of mental models and techniques that can help people be more productive. It shows marketers, professionals, and any entrepreneur the value of the little things. The story around compounding efforts leading to expertise is a message I think more people need to understand and embrace. No one starts as an expert. No one starts as the best of all time. It’s persistence and a layer of consistency around small things that compound to make up the skills that differentiate the best from the rest.”

Veronica Romney, Founder and President of SoLoMo Inc.


Find her on Twitter:@vromney

CTAConf 2018 Talk: Going Beyond the Basics of Facebook Advertising

Recommends: Start With Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Action by Simon Sinek

“This talk came to my mind instantly. It’s by far my favourite, and I think the most inspiring, TED Talk for those in marketing and entrepreneurs in general. The points Simon makes can benefit a broad audience of businessmen and women who, like me, can get discouraged by comparisons.

In a nutshell, he describes how the values of a company represent the core of that company and why they have chosen to do business. His “Golden Circle” idea is simple, working from the why of the company to how the company will achieve the why, and what that company will produce. Focusing first on the why of business rather than the how is key in marketing, keeping a client base, and gaining new customers. Because people don’t buy what you do, they buy why you do it.”

Love recommendations from marketing pros? Don’t miss our interviews with CTAConf speakers April Dunford, Rob Bucci, and Cyrus Shepard for solid advice on product positioning, SEO strategy, and local search.

Momoko Price, Conversion Copywriter and Interaction Designer for Kantan Designs

CTAConf 2018 Talk: Data-Driven Copywriting for Brand-Spanking New Products

Recommends: Growth is Good but Retention is 4+Ever by Brian Balfour

“I absolutely love Brian Balfour’s talk on the importance and impact of optimizing customer retention. It does a fantastic job of summarizing the metrics that really matter when it comes to growing a subscription-based business. This is so easy to ignore when you’re a marketer, since most of us are expected to spend 90% of our time on acquiring new customers and getting the word out about the product.

What’s the point of doing all that work if those new customers never stick around? It’s the equivalent of trying to fill a bucket with a giant hole in it, yet we as marketers rarely think about finding and plugging the hole before adding more water. Brian’s talk clearly maps out and visualizes these metrics in an almost diagnostic way, to give guidance on evaluating your own business’ growth and underscore the power and impact good data has.”

Becky Davis, Director of UX and CRO for Tranzact


Find her on Twitter:@barelyremarkabl

CTAConf 2018 Talk: Conversion Rate Optimization: The Art and Science of Guiding the Drunk

Recommends: The Science and Art of Self Assurance: An interview with The Confidence Code co-author Katty Kay

“My vote is for Adam Grant’s interview with Katty Kay, one of the authors of The Confidence Code. Her book spends time examining the confidence gap between men and women, the reasons behind it, and its effects. It’s really interesting, but that’s not the only reason I’ve chosen it as a favourite.

I chose it because hearing from successful people, men and women alike, who struggle with confidence the way I often do, was comforting for me. That they also over-prepare and stress about tiny mistakes was reassuring. But the biggest impact to me was hearing that if I spoke out, if I asked for things, if I took action, then the results would likely be positive. That pushed me to do so even when I was uncomfortable. I can’t tell you how many times that attitude has opened doors for me because I pushed when I wanted to hold back. If I hadn’t, I would have lost those chances. And every time I did, my own confidence grew and any fears I had became less demotivating.”

Lisa Pierson, The Conversion Copywriter

Find her on Twitter:@piersonlisaj

CTAConf 2018 Talk: I Joined Match.com and Didn’t Get the Love I Expected: Where Was the Onboarding Help When I Needed It?

Recommends: I Got There: How I Overcame Racism, Poverty, and Abuse to Achieve the American Dream by JT McCormick

“I saw a presentation by JT McCormick this year that really moved me. It has nothing to do with marketing or copywriting, but was very inspiring.

There isn’t a video of the talk itself, but I’d highly recommend reading his book I Got There: How I Overcame Racism, Poverty, and Abuse to Achieve the American Dream. In it, he speaks about his difficult childhood and the many hardships he endured. These are not the typical hardships people go through—his were unbelievably difficult. Yet, despite being knocked down over and over again, he managed to not only make something of himself professionally but to not let those events define who he is.

In my own life as an entrepreneur and single mom, almost everything starts and ends with me. There’s no safety net or backup plan. Things can get difficult and they can wear on you. But my life is so much more privileged than JT’s was, and watching his presentation helped me realize that we’re all so much stronger than we think we can be. External events don’t define who we are. And day-to-day life is what you decide it is.

Unbounce’s list of must-watch talks by brilliant speakers (the above experts included) takes place August 28-29th on Vancouver’s Queen Elizabeth Theatre stage. Check out the full agenda and use the code “CTAConfTalks” at checkout to get 35% off the most actionable marketing event and best experiences you’ll have at a conference this year.

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6 Inspiring Talks to Binge Watch, as Recommended by Expert Marketers

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The Ethics Of Persuasion




The Ethics Of Persuasion

Lyndon Cerejo



(This article is kindly sponsored by Adobe.) A few months ago, the world was shocked to learn that Cambridge Analytica had improperly used data from a harmless looking personality quiz on Facebook to profile and target the wider audience on the platform with advertisements to persuade them to vote a certain way. Only part of the data was obtained with consent (!), the data was stored by the app creator (!!), and it was sold to Cambridge Analytica in violation of terms of use (!!!). This was an example of black hat design, a deceptive use of persuasion tactics, combined with unethical use of personal information.

On the other hand, the last time you shopped on eBay, you may have noticed the use of multiple design elements encouraging you to buy an item (“last item”, “3 watched in the past day”). While these design techniques are used to persuade users, they are usually not deceptive and are considered white hat techniques.

A third example comes from Google I/O 2018 last month when the world heard Google Duplex make a call to a salon for an appointment and carry out a fluent conversation mimicking human mannerisms so well that the person at the other end did not realize she was talking to a machine. The machine did not misrepresent itself as human, nor did it identify itself as a machine, which, in my book, puts it in a gray area. What’s stopping this from being used in black hat design in the near future?


examples of persuasive tactics


Large preview

As you see from the three examples above, the use of persuasive tactics can fall anywhere on a spectrum from black hat at one extreme to white hat at the other, with a large fuzzy gray area separating the two. In today’s world of online and email scams, phishing attacks, and data breaches, users are increasingly cautious of persuasive tactics being used that are not in their best interest. Experience designers, developers, and creators are responsible for making decisions around the ethical nature of the tactics we use in our designs.

This article will present a brief history of persuasion, look at how persuasion is used with technology and new media, and present food for thought for designers and developers to avoid crossing the ethical line to the dark side of persuasion.

History Of Persuasion

Persuasion tactics and techniques are hardly new — they have been used for ages. Aristotle’s Rhetoric, over 2000 years ago, is one of the earliest documents on the art of persuasion. The modes of persuasion Aristotle presented were ethos (credibility), logos (reason), and pathos (emotion). He also discussed how kairos (opportune time) is important for the modes of persuasion.

Fast forward to today, and we see persuasion methods used in advertising, marketing, and communication all around us. When we try to convince someone of a point of view or win that next design client or project, chances are we are using persuasion: a process by which a person’s attitudes or behavior are, without duress, influenced by communications from other people (Encyclopedia Britannica).

While Aristotle first documented persuasion, Robert Cialdini’s Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion is more commonly referenced when talking about modern persuasion. According to Cialdini, there are six key principles of persuasion:

  1. Reciprocity
    People are obliged to give something back in exchange for receiving something.
  2. Scarcity
    People want more of those things they can have less of.
  3. Authority
    People follow the lead of credible, knowledgeable experts.
  4. Consistency
    People like to be consistent with the things they have previously said or done.
  5. Liking
    People prefer to say yes to those that they like.
  6. Consensus (Social Proof)
    Especially when they are uncertain, people will look to the actions and behaviors of others to determine their own.

We have all been exposed to one or more of these principles, and may recognize them in advertising or when interacting with others. While that has been around for ages, what is relatively new is the application of persuasion techniques to new technology and media. This started off with personal computers, became more prominent with the Internet, and is now pervasive with mobile devices.

Persuasion Through Technology And New Media

Behavior scientist B.J. Fogg is a pioneer when it comes to the role of technology in persuasion. Over two decades ago, he started exploring the overlap between persuasion and computing technology. This included interactive technologies like websites, software, and devices created for the purpose of changing people’s attitudes or behaviors. He referred to this field as captology, an acronym based on computers as persuasive technologies, and wrote the book on it, Persuasive Technology: Using Computers to Change What We Think and Do.


Captology describes the shaded area where computing technology and persuasion overlap


Captology describes the shaded area where computing technology and persuasion overlap (recreated from BJ Fogg’s CHI 98 paper, Persuasive Computers). (Large preview)

Interactive technologies have many advantages over traditional media because they are interactive. They also have advantages over humans because they can be more persistent (e.g. software update reminders), offer anonymity (great for sensitive topics), can access and manipulate large amounts of data (e.g. Amazon recommendations), can use many styles and modes (text, graphics, audio, video, animation, simulations), can easily scale, and are pervasive.

This last advantage is even more pronounced today, with mobile phones being an extension of our arms, and increased proliferation of smart devices, embedded computing, IoT, wearable technology, Augmented Reality, Virtual Reality, and virtual assistants powered by AI being embedded in anything and everything around us. In addition, today’s technological advances allow us to time and target moments of persuasion for high impact, since it is easy to know a user’s location, context, time, routine, and give them the ability to take action. This could be a reminder from your smartwatch to stand or move, or an offer from the coffee shop while you are a few blocks away.

Ethics And New Technology And Interactive Media

The use of persuasion in traditional media over the past decades has raised questions about the ethical use of persuasion. With new media and pervasive technology, there are more questions about the ethical use of persuasion, some of which are due to the advantages pervasive technology has over traditional media and humans. Anyone using persuasive methods to change people’s minds or behavior should have a thorough understanding of the ethical implications and impact of their work.

One of the key responsibilities of a designer during any design process is to be an advocate for the user. This role becomes even more crucial when persuasion techniques are intentionally used in design, since users may be unaware of the persuasion tactics. Even worse, some users may not be capable to detect these tactics, as may be the case with children, seniors or other vulnerable users.

BJ Fogg provides six factors that give interactive technologies an advantage over users when it comes to persuasion:

  1. Persuasive intent is masked by novelty
    The web and email are no longer novel, and most of us have wizened up to deceptive web practices and the promises of Nigerian Princes, but we still find novelty in new mobile apps, voice interfaces, AR, VR. Not too long ago, the craze with Pokémon Go raised many ethical questions.
  2. Positive reputation of new technology
    While “It must be true — I saw it on the Internet” is now a punchline, users are still being persuaded to like, comment, share, retweet, spread challenges, and make fake news or bot generated content viral.
  3. Unlimited persistence
    Would you like a used car salesman following you around after your first visit, continually trying to sell you a car? While that thankfully does not happen in real life, your apps and devices are with you all the time, and the ding and glowing screen have the ability to persistently persuade us, even in places and times that may be otherwise inappropriate. This past Lent, my son took a break from his mobile device. When he started it after Easter, he had hundreds of past notifications and alerts from one mobile game offering all sorts of reminders and incentives to come back and use it.
  4. Control over how the interaction unfolds
    Unlike human persuasion, where the person being persuaded has the ability to react and change course, technology has predefined options, controlled by the creators, designers and developers. When designing voice interfaces, creators have to define what their skill will be able to do, and for everything else come back with a “Sorry I can’t help with that”. Just last month, a social network blocked access to their mobile website, asking me to install their app to access their content, without an escape or dismiss option.
  5. Can affect emotion while still being emotionless
    New technology doesn’t have emotion. Even with the recent advances in Artificial Intelligence, machines do not feel emotion like humans do. Back to the Google Duplex assistant call mentioned at the beginning, issues can arise when people are not aware that the voice at the other end is just an emotionless machine, and treat it as another person just like them.
  6. Cannot take responsibility for negative outcomes of persuasion
    What happens when something goes wrong, and the app or the technology cannot take responsibility? Do the creators shoulder that responsibility, even if their persuasion strategies have unintended outcomes, or if misused by their partners? Mark Zuckerberg accepted responsibility for the Cambridge Analytica scandal before and during the congress hearings.

With these unfair advantages at our disposal, how do we, as creators, designers, and developers make ethical choices in our designs and solutions? For one, take a step back and consider the ethical implication and impact of our work, and then take a stand for our users.

Many designers are pushing back and being vocal about some of the ethically questionable nature of tech products and designs. There’s Tristan Harris, a former Google Design Ethicist, who has spoken out about how tech companies’ products hijack users’ minds. Sean Parker, Napster founder and former president of Facebook, described how Facebook was designed to exploit human “vulnerability”. And Basecamp’s Jonas Downey ruminates on how most software products are owned and operated by corporations, whose business interests often contradict their users’ interests.

Design Code Of Conduct

AIGA, the largest professional membership organization for design, has a series on Design Business and Ethics. Design Professionalism author Andy Rutledge also created a Professional Code of Conduct. Both are very detailed and cover the business of design, but not specifically ethics related to design that impacts or influences human behavior.

Other professionals who impact the human mind have ethical principles and codes of conduct, like those published by the American Psychological Association and the British Psychological Society. The purpose of these codes of conduct is to protect participants as well as the reputation of psychology and psychologists themselves. When using psychology in our designs, we could examine how the ethical principles of psychologists are applicable to our work as creators, designers, and developers.

Principles And Questions

Using the Ethical Principles of Psychologists as a framework, I defined how each principle applies to persuasive design and listed questions related to ethical implications of design. These are by no means exhaustive but are intended to be food for thought in each of these areas. Note: When you see ‘design’ in the questions below, it refers to persuasive techniques used in your design, app, product or solution.

Principle A: Beneficence And Nonmaleficence

Do no harm. Your decisions may affect the minds, behavior, and lives of your users and others around them, so be alert and guard against misusing the influence of your designs.

  • Does your design change the way people interact for the better?
  • Does the design aim to keep users spending time they didn’t intend to?
  • Does the design make it easy to access socially unacceptable or illegal items that your users would not have easy access to otherwise?
  • How may your partners (including third-party tools and SDKs) or “bad guys” misuse your design, unknown to you?
  • Would you be comfortable with someone else using your design on you?
  • Would you like someone else to use this design to persuade your mother or your child?

Principle B: Fidelity And Responsibility

Be aware of your responsibility to your intended users, unintended users and society at large. Accept appropriate responsibility for the outcomes of your design.

  • During design, follow up answers to “How might we…?” with “At what cost?”
  • What is the impact of your design/product/solution? Who or what does it replace or impact?
  • If your design was used opposite from your intended use, what could the impact be?
  • Does your design change social norms, etiquette or traditions for the better?
  • Will the design put users in harm’s way or make them vulnerable, intentionally or unintentionally (Study Estimates That Pokémon GO Has Caused More Than 100,000 Traffic Accidents)? How can it be prevented?

Principle C: Integrity

Promote accuracy, honesty, and truthfulness in your designs. Do not cheat, misrepresent or engage in fraud. When deception may be ethically justifiable to maximize benefits and minimize harm, carefully consider the need for, the possible consequences of, and be responsible for correcting any resulting mistrust or other harmful effects that arise from the use of such techniques.

  • Do you need users’ consent? When asking for their consent, are they aware of what exactly they are consenting to?
  • What’s the intent of the design? Is it in the best interest of the user or the creator? Are you open and transparent about your intentions?
  • Does your design use deception, manipulation, misrepresentation, threats, coercion or other dishonest techniques?
  • Are users aware or informed if they are being monitored, or is it covert?
  • Is your design benefiting you or the creators at the expense of your users?
  • What would a future whistleblower say about you and your design?

Principle D: Justice

Exercise reasonable judgment and take precautions to ensure that your potential biases, the limitations of your expertise does not lead to, or condone unjust practices. Your design should benefit both the creators and users.

  • Does your design contain any designer biases built in (gender, political, or other)?
  • Does your design advocate hate, violence, crime, propaganda?
  • If you did this in person, without technology, would it be considered ethical?
  • What are the benefits to the creators/business? What are the benefits to the users? Are the benefits stacked in favor of the business?
  • Do you make it easy for users to disconnect? Do users have control and the ability to stop, without being subject to further persuasion through other channels?

Principle E: Respect For People’s Rights And Dignity

Respect the dignity and worth of all people, and the rights of individuals to privacy, and confidentiality. Special safeguards may be necessary to protect the rights and welfare of vulnerable users.

  • Are your designs using persuasion with vulnerable users (children, seniors, poor)?
  • Does your design protect users’ privacy and give them control over their settings?
  • Does the design require unnecessary permissions to work?
  • Can your design use a less in-your-face technique to get the same outcome? (e.g. speed monitors on roads instead of surveillance)
  • Does your design make your users a nuisance to others? How can you prevent that?

Conclusion

If you have been designing with white hat techniques, you may appreciate the ethical issues discussed here. However, if you have been designing in the grey or black area, thank you for making it all the way to the end. Ethics in persuasive design are important because they don’t prey on the disadvantages users have when it comes to interactive technology. As creators, designers, and developers, we have a responsibility to stand up for our users.

Do good. Do no harm. Design ethically.

Resources

Books

This article is part of the UX design series sponsored by Adobe. Adobe XD tool is made for a fast and fluid UX design process, as it lets you go from idea to prototype faster. Design, prototype and share — all in one app. You can check out more inspiring projects created with Adobe XD on Behance, and also sign up for the Adobe experience design newsletter to stay updated and informed on the latest trends and insights for UX/UI design.

Smashing Editorial
(ra, il, yk)


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The Ethics Of Persuasion

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3 Best Ways to Increase Conversions Through Influencer Content

The power of a word of mouth is incredible and it should never be underestimated. People refer other users’ recommendations way too often to neglect them. That is where the power of influencer content comes into play. Due to the massive reach and engagement, the opinion of a thought leader helps build brand awareness and increase conversion rates for your brand. The outcome however will depend on how well you formulate your influencer marketing. Working with the niche influencers is not only a good way to promote your product, but also to create quality content. Focus on long-term benefits, and…

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3 Best Ways to Increase Conversions Through Influencer Content

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The 5 pillars of digital transformation strategy at Mark’s: An interview with changemaker, Johnny Russo

Totally. Within the Education or the People pillar is the use of data and how much more important that is…Read blog postabout:The 5 pillars of digital transformation strategy at Mark’s: An interview with changemaker, Johnny Russo

The post The 5 pillars of digital transformation strategy at Mark’s: An interview with changemaker, Johnny Russo appeared first on WiderFunnel Conversion Optimization.

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The 5 pillars of digital transformation strategy at Mark’s: An interview with changemaker, Johnny Russo

7 Crucial Steps to Convert Casual Visitors into Premium Customers

You have a professional website that looks attractive, your pages load up quickly as well, and you’re a master storyteller. Yet, you’re still struggling to make your casual website visitors make a purchase, or contact you for a quote. It can be very frustrating. However, you’ve got to understand no matter how great your website is, you can’t control people’s decisions 100%. But there are steps you can take to steer their decision making processes in the right direction. There are several reasons why website visitors aren’t converting. Here’s the proven 7-step process to take a ‘casual’ visitor who just…

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7 Crucial Steps to Convert Casual Visitors into Premium Customers

How to Use MailChimp’s Instagram Ad Integration

mailchimp instagram

Marketing automation platform MailChimp recently announced that Instagram ads can now be purchased, created, and managed right from your MailChimp dashboard. With email being 40% more effective than Facebook and Twitter marketing combined, MailChimp wondered – what if we combined the best of both worlds? MailChimp already unveiled their Facebook Ads integration earlier this year and made the bold statement to MailChimp users that combine email marketing and Facebook ads see an average ROI of 51% as opposed to interest-based marketing alone. Now, Facebook’s subsidiary, Instagram, is also getting in on the action. This means that, by using MailChimp, you…

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How to Use MailChimp’s Instagram Ad Integration

Mitch Joel on Why Agencies Should Care About Conversion Rate Optimization [INTERVIEW]

Move over Don Draper, the modern day agency marketer needs to be more of a Renaissance (wo)man.

Sure, they need to be creative enough to craft a compelling pitch.

But they also need to be data-driven. They need to be well versed in analytics and the latest MarTech trends. And when budgets get tight, agency marketers need to be able to convince their clients to not cut out conversion rate optimization.

Few people know this better than Mitch Joel, president of Mirum, a global digital marketing agency operating in 20 different countries. Mitch is a best-selling business author, international speaker and agency thought leader. But he’s also a full-stack marketer who has been doing display advertising for longer than Google itself.

Mitch Joel, president of global digital agency Mirum and author of Six Pixels of Separation and CTRL ALT Delete.Image source.

Since Mitch entered the digital marketing world, a helluvalot has changed — and not just in agencyland. As technology evolves, so too are consumers and the way they interact with our brands. At the Call to Action Conference in June, Mitch’s keynote, Algorhythm: How Technology Connects Consumers To Brands Like Never Before, will dive into how to future-proof your brand and embrace disruption to become a digital leader.

PSST. Hey blog reader, we like the cut of your jib. Get 15% off Call to Action Conference tickets by using discount code “blogsentme” at checkout. Offer expires May 12th.

Ugh, why can’t it be June already?

To tide you over, here’s a fascinating interview with Mitch from the Call to Action Podcast. Unbounce Director of Content Dan Levy sat down with Mitch to discuss:

  • How the agency world has evolved over the past 15 years.
  • Mitch’s experience selling his independent agency to the largest holding company in the world.
  • How everything from search results to PPC and even the talent you hire for your agency are all extensions of your brand.

Check out some highlights from the interview below. (This transcript has been edited for length. Listen to the full episode on iTunes.)

Dan Levy: You’re known as a bestselling business author, speaker and agency thought leader, but you got your start in the online marketing trenches doing ad sales and even PPC marketing for a site called Mamma.com. Can you take us back to that time? What did the online marketing landscape look like and what did you learn from that experience?

Mitch Joel: Actually, yes, I did do that. But my start in digital came much earlier when I was publishing music magazines in the late 80s and early 90s. I actually was tangentially at the same time very engaged in digital media: first web browser, BBSs, stuff like that. And I actually put those magazines on the “internet” — like air quote internet — because back then, there wasn’t even really an internet.

I remember one of the cover stories for my alternative, cool, fun publication was called, “The Net.” The innovation at that time was hyperlinks. I literally was posting things on the internet from the magazine that couldn’t have hyperlinks. You couldn’t link from one page to the other. That really kept me on the trajectory where eventually I helped launch the sales channel of what at the time was one of the largest meta search engines on the internet. And again, it’s hard to imagine a world before Google. But this was pre-Google. And so the meta search engine would basically grab search results from engines like Yahoo, AOL, Lycos, and create a meta — or a better — search result that we could actually aggregate faster.

My role back then was selling sponsorships on the homepage, it was selling banner advertising. And it was also very early days of selling — literally the first time of being able to take a search result and having a banner that’s related to the search show up in the search result. And to tell you how early and nascent it was, I had to physically go into the code of the search engine to code the banner in. I don’t recommend that in this day in age. Like I don’t think anyone at Google is going into the master code to embed a search result. But that’s how early the times were back then.

DL: Wow. What did you learn from that experience that you brought forth?

MJ: Well I learned to take chances. I can tell you that when they approached me about the opportunity, my first question was, “What’s online advertising?” I mean, we are talking about a time when that first banner ad on HotWired — which became Wired — had just run.

The first banner ad, ever. Image source: Wired.

I didn’t even know what it looked like, what it felt like, what it could be. I think my pedigree in selling traditional print ads and having a construct of what it means to run a media company is what pushed me there. So it was — to this day, it was a great move. And I’m so grateful, I still have a lot of friends in my life now who came from there. A lot of people who’ve become — who’ve ascended in this industry to run major, major web initiatives are people that I hired. People that I brought into the industry. So I have a lot of pride in that.

And I also learned that — again, when I think about it, I don’t know why I took the job. All logic would dictate that at the time, I should not have taken that job. But I took the job and it wound up being great for me because it brought together what I was doing professionally on one side. And on the other side, it brought together my passion for digital. I often say that I was very early into many things. And when we started Mirum, which back then was Twist Image in 2000 (I joined in 2002). At that point in my career I said, even though I might be a little early in this space, I’m going to ride it out.

DL: Performance marketing and brand marketing are often seen as being on different sides of the digital marketing spectrum. Do you think that’s true? Do you see those two disciplines as coming closer together in an age where Facebook has gone from a social media network to just another performance marketing channel?

MJ: I think you’re right. The evolution — and by the way, Google structured themselves — for a long while, and they may still — around brand and performance. And that’s common. Where I think the confusion comes from is that within real behavioral performance-based marketing, there are heavy and hefty living around brand and experience that we often dismiss because we think that performance is still about getting the right search word, getting them to the right page.

But actually if you step back from that, the meta message is that it has to be a very relevant and cohesive brand experience. And I was somebody who wasn’t just buying generic brand keywords back in the day, to just keep that going. I actually believe that — a saying I’ve used since the early 2000s is that the first page of search results is a brand experience.


You can’t separate PPC & brand marketing. The 1st page of search is part of your brand experience.
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So there’s that. That sort of dismisses the idea that performance is not about branding. And you’re right — fast forwarding to today, a lot of my clients and a lot of people I meet when I do speaking events will say that social media is primarily a paid channel, because of what Facebook has done to throttle the content and have you pay against reach. Which I think by the way is a great model and clearly the market would agree with that idea.

But you can’t have any results — whether you’re paying for it or it’s organic — unless it’s a really good experience.

Whether or not that’s through a search result, an email marketing initiative, a great landing page *hint hint wink wink* to you guys, or a good old piece of content. I really don’t care. I’m actually agnostic to that.

DL: Where do performance channels like PPC and landing page optimization and conversion rate optimization come into the picture with the kinds of big brands that you work with? Are those things part of your offer? Do you factor them into how you pitch and bill clients?

MJ: Well it depends on whether someone’s going full bore with us or not. Like any other agency, we work on specific campaigns, specific projects, longer initiatives and then full-on mandates. And even the full-on mandates have sort of splits and fits and starts.

The way we started our company, we only wanted to work with large national and multinational brands and we’ve stuck to that model for what’s coming up onto 17 years. Because of that, being of startup size back in the early 2000s, most brands already had large media companies at play. And those media companies even back then were feeling very threatened by digital and would make those offerings.

So we would come in and grab pieces and parts of it and really focus on the behavioral side. Let us handle the drive to optimization, landing page, unique spaces, unique experience while the media companies were really checking boxes around “online video,” “search,” affiliate marketing” and stuff like that. So from my pedigree, I stand very firmly and aligned with what performance can do in terms of optimizations and moving things forward. I feel like I’m banging against the wall when everyone says, “Well we do that.” I think people do do that, but they don’t really do it.

I still really believe that a lot of the work we see is what I call “rearview mirror.” You know, we did it, we’re running these keywords to a landing page, and let’s see how it did. Post. I believe, and I know that Mirum as an agency believes it, all of that optimization, all of that data, all of that opportunity is now in the passenger seat. When you do it well and you actually are optimizing and driving and creating unique experiences on landing pages and stuff like that, you’ve moved it from the rearview mirror to the passenger’s seat and you can fix it and go so that there always is a positive result, not a result that says, “Oh, that campaign just didn’t work.” I can’t believe we still use that language in business today!

DL: Right, as if a campaign or an experience is a success or a failure — only if it meets your hypothesis. And the learnings aren’t a factor or don’t have anything to do with it at all.

MJ: Right and it’s frustrating for me because I feel like we often lose business or can’t grab the business because there’s a sentiment that we already have someone doing that work. But when you dig into what that work is, you see that there actually isn’t a lot of that stuff that we’re really talking about. They say they do that, it’s on their decks, and it’s on their site. But — and I don’t know if it’s a failure of the brand or a failure of the agency. I’m not sure where it happens. But there is a vast majority of very powerful brands really not doing enough.

DL: Do you think the problem is that optimization is seen as a discipline or a branch of marketing instead of just a mindset?

MJ: Yeah. One of my close friends is Bryan Eisenberg, who I really believe is one of the forefathers of this optimization space. He’s written books about it, “Waiting For Your Cat to Bark?” and intent and scent and all that.

My relationship with Bryan is going on for close to 20 years at this point. And he would often say things like, “You know, here we are talking about all this stuff. And the first thing a brand will cut on a budget is the optimization. Hands down.

And it’s mind-numbing and it’s mind-blowing to both of us — and years later it still remains the same — because that’s actually where you make money. And I don’t know why brands, agencies don’t get it. I don’t get how they don’t get it.

DL: Can you talk about the role content played in getting Twist on the map? I imagine that your book and your blog and your podcast were all part of ultimately attracting the attention of WPP and making that acquisition happen.

MJ: It’s a yes and no story.

It’s a yes story in the sense that it’s very interesting when they’re doing financial and product assessments to see an agency that has been so consistent for a decade. Creating the blog, the podcast, Six Pixels of Separation, that lead to 50-60 paid speaking events a year. That lead to two best selling books — and I’m not trying to toot my own horn, but represented by a major New York literary agent, onto a major — largest book publisher in the world, onto the global deal. And other things that come from media appearances and stuff like that.

DL: Yeah, I think that from my perspective, Twist Image and Mitch Joel were kind of one and the same.

MJ: Totally. And we built it that way. We always saw from day one, back in 2003ish, when we started the blog, that Twist Image (at the time — now Mirum) would be managing three brands:

  1. that Mirum brand,
  2. Six Pixels of Separation (which we sort of considered the sort of “content engine” — so blog, podcast, articles, speaking, books)
  3. and then Mitch Joel, this media face. This warm, hopefully friendly and personable face to an agency, which again, now seems very obvious.

But if you go back 10+ years, nobody was really doing that. They didn’t really have that. So the fact that we were sharing content, having conversations with people who just didn’t have a voice before — you know, we were having hour-long conversations with business or marketing thought leaders. That you didn’t get an hour with. You’d be lucky if you had one famous enough to get 10 minutes on Charlie Rose. Suddenly, someone is spending an hour with them, having a conversation like they would over a coffee, and publishing it to the world.

There were these assets there that were built over time, and again, I do know that when it came to the opportunity for us to be acquired, one of the metrics was the fact that there is revenue generation that comes out of the content engine. That doesn’t just create media attention and a level of fame, whatever that might be. But that there actually was revenue behind this thing. And that was very surprising and shocking to them.

DL: Meaning what? It gets clients in the door?

MJ: I mean, yeah, think about it. You pitch for business development, you spend weeks, months pitching. And business development is a cost center. It costs every agency a lot of money to business develop. You don’t win every pitch. It’s a very small percentage. And you hope that the ones you win make up for all the money you spent. When you’re offsetting that cost with speaking gigs, book deals, article writing and stuff like that, it’s really interesting that you’re creating this voice and building a platform and it actually is driving business, it’s driving revenue — both in terms of client and raw revenue. We get dollars to speak and write books. It’s not vanity.

It was always about creating equity in the brand, that would have one of two roles. That one day, we would be acquired. Or if we’re never acquired, we’re running this business in a way where all of the top players would want to acquire it. And there would be extreme value in the brand.

I like building businesses that build equity as they grow. And this channel of speaking, writing, etc — it wasn’t a core component of what we were acquired for, but it was definitely on the list.

DL: It reminds me of the Rolling Stones model, where you’re the front man, but ultimately, you share those profits evenly. I know they’ve credited that as their longevity for them as a band. It sounds like the same thing for the longevity of Twist, and now Mirum.

MJ: Yeah, and I try to not have it be ego-driven. I look at it like — my job, as a media entity, is to be extremely personable. And to know that I’m managing Mirum, Six Pixels and Mitch Joel. And I conduct myself accordingly. If you look me up on Facebook, there isn’t a ton of personal stuff. There’s a ton of personable stuff.

DL: If you had to give agencies who are looking to set themselves apart from the crowd and spur growth for both their clients and their own business one piece of advice, what would it be?

MJ: I really think it is much like a great book. A great book works not because the topic is unique. I feel like more often than not you’re reading a topic that somebody else covered in one shape or form.

It’s the voice. I don’t see that much in terms of agencies having that unique voice. Do I think we achieved it? Partially. And I think it’s because it’s a journey — you’re constantly changing it, moving it along. But if I were to go across — and we did this exercise when we were trying to figure out the branding for Mirum, Twist Image — I would jokingly tell people, “You could take the website of all our biggest competitors, take off the logos, throw them in the air, and whatever website they fall on, you’d still be pretty much right.” The services, types of case studies, type of work we do. And still to this day, I think that story rings true.

The ones that stand out, though, are the ones that have a unique voice. It could be a unique individual — I’m thinking of people like Bob Greenberg at R/GA. It could just be a unique story to tell. So if you look at an agency like WK, the fact that they’ve been large and independent, the type of work that they’ve done it’s like the voice of the agency is the work that they do. That type of thing is the only component of your business that you can have that is the defendable against a competitor. It’s how you express yourself, tell your stories, the type of team members you bring in, the type of work that you do, the stories you tell in the marketplace, where you network, what you attend. That’s the big one.

The secondary one is get involved in your industry. What  drove this business at Mirum was the fact that we got involved in places like Shop.org, the National Retail Federation, Canadian Marketing Association, Interactive Advertising — I could go on and on. And we didn’t just join and become members. We got involved. In fact, we just had a conversation at lunch about an association that I’m super interested in. And the answer we all came to was: “Not unless we can get deeply involved.” So, what you find out is that by giving (because you love this industry and you want it to be better), you do wind up in some way receiving. We don’t get involved to get results. By getting involved and being active, it just happens.

DL: Well Mitch, it’s always a real treat to talk shop with you. Thank you so much for taking the time.

MJ: My pleasure! Thanks for having me.

This transcript has been edited for length. Listen to the full episode on iTunes.

Read this article:

Mitch Joel on Why Agencies Should Care About Conversion Rate Optimization [INTERVIEW]

Mitch Joel on Why Agencies Should Care About Finding Their Unique Voice [INTERVIEW]

Move over Don Draper, the modern day agency marketer needs to be more of a Renaissance (wo)man.

Sure, they need to be creative enough to craft a compelling pitch.

But they also need to be data-driven. They need to be well versed in analytics and the latest MarTech trends. And when budgets get tight, agency marketers need to be able to convince their clients to not cut out conversion rate optimization.

Few people know this better than Mitch Joel, president of Mirum, a global digital marketing agency operating in 20 different countries. Mitch is a best-selling business author, international speaker and agency thought leader. But he’s also a full-stack marketer who has been doing display advertising for longer than Google itself.

Mitch Joel, president of global digital agency Mirum and author of Six Pixels of Separation and CTRL ALT Delete.Image source.

Since Mitch entered the digital marketing world, a helluvalot has changed — and not just in agencyland. As technology evolves, so too are consumers and the way they interact with our brands. At the Call to Action Conference in June, Mitch’s keynote, Algorhythm: How Technology Connects Consumers To Brands Like Never Before, will dive into how to future-proof your brand and embrace disruption to become a digital leader.

Ugh, why can’t it be June already?

To tide you over, here’s a fascinating interview with Mitch from the Call to Action Podcast. Unbounce Director of Content Dan Levy sat down with Mitch to discuss:

  • How the agency world has evolved over the past 15 years.
  • Mitch’s experience selling his independent agency to WPP, the largest advertising company in the world.
  • How everything from search results to PPC and even the talent you hire for your agency are all extensions of your brand.

Check out some highlights from the interview below. (This transcript has been edited for length. Listen to the full episode on iTunes.)

Dan Levy: You’re known as a bestselling business author, speaker and agency thought leader, but you got your start in the online marketing trenches doing ad sales and even PPC marketing for a site called Mamma.com. Can you take us back to that time? What did the online marketing landscape look like and what did you learn from that experience?

Mitch Joel: Actually, yes, I did do that. But my start in digital came much earlier when I was publishing music magazines in the late 80s and early 90s. I actually was tangentially at the same time very engaged in digital media: first web browser, BBSs, stuff like that. And I actually put those magazines on the “internet” — like air quote internet — because back then, there wasn’t even really an internet.

I remember one of the cover stories for my alternative, cool, fun publication was called, “The Net.” The innovation at that time was hyperlinks. I literally was posting things on the internet from the magazine that couldn’t have hyperlinks. You couldn’t link from one page to the other. That really kept me on the trajectory where eventually I helped launch the sales channel of what at the time was one of the largest meta search engines on the internet. And again, it’s hard to imagine a world before Google. But this was pre-Google. And so the meta search engine would basically grab search results from engines like Yahoo, AOL, Lycos, and create a meta — or a better — search result that we could actually aggregate faster.

My role back then was selling sponsorships on the homepage, it was selling banner advertising. And it was also very early days of selling — literally the first time of being able to take a search result and having a banner that’s related to the search show up in the search result. And to tell you how early and nascent it was, I had to physically go into the code of the search engine to code the banner in. I don’t recommend that in this day in age. Like I don’t think anyone at Google is going into the master code to embed a search result. But that’s how early the times were back then.

DL: Wow. What did you learn from that experience that you brought forth?

MJ: Well I learned to take chances. I can tell you that when they approached me about the opportunity, my first question was, “What’s online advertising?” I mean, we are talking about a time when that first banner ad on HotWired — which became Wired — had just run.

The first banner ad, ever. Image source: Wired.

I didn’t even know what it looked like, what it felt like, what it could be. I think my pedigree in selling traditional print ads and having a construct of what it means to run a media company is what pushed me there. So it was — to this day, it was a great move. And I’m so grateful, I still have a lot of friends in my life now who came from there. A lot of people who’ve become — who’ve ascended in this industry to run major, major web initiatives are people that I hired. People that I brought into the industry. So I have a lot of pride in that.

And I also learned that — again, when I think about it, I don’t know why I took the job. All logic would dictate that at the time, I should not have taken that job. But I took the job and it wound up being great for me because it brought together what I was doing professionally on one side. And on the other side, it brought together my passion for digital. I often say that I was very early into many things. And when we started Mirum, which back then was Twist Image in 2000 (I joined in 2002). At that point in my career I said, even though I might be a little early in this space, I’m going to ride it out.

DL: Performance marketing and brand marketing are often seen as being on different sides of the digital marketing spectrum. Do you think that’s true? Do you see those two disciplines as coming closer together in an age where Facebook has gone from a social media network to just another performance marketing channel?

MJ: I think you’re right. The evolution — and by the way, Google structured themselves — for a long while, and they may still — around brand and performance. And that’s common. Where I think the confusion comes from is that within real behavioral performance-based marketing, there are heavy and hefty lifting around brand and experience that we often dismiss because we think that performance is still about getting the right search word, getting them to the right page.

But actually if you step back from that, the meta message is that it has to be a very relevant and cohesive brand experience. And I was somebody who wasn’t just buying generic brand keywords back in the day, to just keep that going. I actually believe that — a saying I’ve used since the early 2000s is that the first page of search results is a brand experience.


You can’t separate PPC & brand marketing. The 1st page of search is part of your brand…
Click To Tweet


So there’s that. That sort of dismisses the idea that performance is not about branding. And you’re right — fast forwarding to today, a lot of my clients and a lot of people I meet when I do speaking events will say that social media is primarily a paid channel, because of what Facebook has done to throttle the content and have you pay against reach. Which I think by the way is a great model and clearly the market would agree with that idea.

But you can’t have any results — whether you’re paying for it or it’s organic — unless it’s a really good experience.

Whether or not that’s through a search result, an email marketing initiative, a great landing page *hint hint wink wink* to you guys, or a good old piece of content. I really don’t care. I’m actually agnostic to that.

DL: Where do performance channels like PPC and landing page optimization and conversion rate optimization come into the picture with the kinds of big brands that you work with? Are those things part of your offer? Do you factor them into how you pitch and bill clients?

MJ: Well it depends on whether someone’s going full bore with us or not. Like any other agency, we work on specific campaigns, specific projects, longer initiatives and then full-on mandates. And even the full-on mandates have sort of splits and fits and starts.

The way we started our company, we only wanted to work with large national and multinational brands and we’ve stuck to that model for what’s coming up onto 17 years. Because of that, being of startup size back in the early 2000s, most brands already had large media companies at play. And those media companies even back then were feeling very threatened by digital and would make those offerings.

So we would come in and grab pieces and parts of it and really focus on the behavioral side. Let us handle the drive to optimization, landing page, unique spaces, unique experience while the media companies were really checking boxes around “online video,” “search,” affiliate marketing” and stuff like that. So from my pedigree, I stand very firmly and aligned with what performance can do in terms of optimizations and moving things forward. I feel like I’m banging against the wall when everyone says, “Well we do that.” I think people do do that, but they don’t really do it.

I still really believe that a lot of the work we see is what I call “rearview mirror.” You know, we did it, we’re running these keywords to a landing page, and let’s see how it did. Post. I believe, and I know that Mirum as an agency believes it, all of that optimization, all of that data, all of that opportunity is now in the passenger seat. When you do it well and you actually are optimizing and driving and creating unique experiences on landing pages and stuff like that, you’ve moved it from the rearview mirror to the passenger’s seat and you can fix it and go so that there always is a positive result, not a result that says, “Oh, that campaign just didn’t work.” I can’t believe we still use that language in business today!

DL: Right, as if a campaign or an experience is a success or a failure — only if it meets your hypothesis. And the learnings aren’t a factor or don’t have anything to do with it at all.

MJ: Right and it’s frustrating for me because I feel like we often lose business or can’t grab the business because there’s a sentiment that we already have someone doing that work. But when you dig into what that work is, you see that there actually isn’t a lot of that stuff that we’re really talking about. They say they do that, it’s on their decks, and it’s on their site. But — and I don’t know if it’s a failure of the brand or a failure of the agency. I’m not sure where it happens. But there is a vast majority of very powerful brands really not doing enough.

DL: Do you think the problem is that optimization is seen as a discipline or a branch of marketing instead of just a mindset?

MJ: Yeah. One of my close friends is Bryan Eisenberg, who I really believe is one of the forefathers of this optimization space. He’s written books about it, “Waiting For Your Cat to Bark?” and intent and scent and all that.

My relationship with Bryan is going on for close to 20 years at this point. And he would often say things like, “You know, here we are talking about all this stuff. And the first thing a brand will cut on a budget is the optimization. Hands down.

And it’s mind-numbing and it’s mind-blowing to both of us — and years later it still remains the same — because that’s actually where you make money. And I don’t know why brands, agencies don’t get it. I don’t get how they don’t get it.

DL: Can you talk about the role content played in getting Twist on the map? I imagine that your book and your blog and your podcast were all part of ultimately attracting the attention of WPP and making that acquisition happen.

MJ: It’s a yes and no story.

It’s a yes story in the sense that it’s very interesting when they’re doing financial and product assessments to see an agency that has been so consistent for a decade. Creating the blog, the podcast, Six Pixels of Separation, that lead to 50-60 paid speaking events a year. That lead to two best selling books — and I’m not trying to toot my own horn, but represented by a major New York literary agent, onto a major — largest book publisher in the world, onto the global deal. And other things that come from media appearances and stuff like that.

DL: Yeah, I think that from my perspective, Twist Image and Mitch Joel were kind of one and the same.

MJ: Totally. And we built it that way. We always saw from day one, back in 2003ish, when we started the blog, that Twist Image (at the time — now Mirum) would be managing three brands:

  1. that Mirum brand,
  2. Six Pixels of Separation (which we sort of considered the sort of “content engine” — so blog, podcast, articles, speaking, books)
  3. and then Mitch Joel, this media face. This warm, hopefully friendly and personable face to an agency, which again, now seems very obvious.

But if you go back 10+ years, nobody was really doing that. They didn’t really have that. So the fact that we were sharing content, having conversations with people who just didn’t have a voice before — you know, we were having hour-long conversations with business or marketing thought leaders. That you didn’t get an hour with. You’d be lucky if you had one famous enough to get 10 minutes on Charlie Rose. Suddenly, someone is spending an hour with them, having a conversation like they would over a coffee, and publishing it to the world.

There were these assets there that were built over time, and again, I do know that when it came to the opportunity for us to be acquired, one of the metrics was the fact that there is revenue generation that comes out of the content engine. That doesn’t just create media attention and a level of fame, whatever that might be. But that there actually was revenue behind this thing. And that was very surprising and shocking to them.

DL: Meaning what? It gets clients in the door?

MJ: I mean, yeah, think about it. You pitch for business development, you spend weeks, months pitching. And business development is a cost center. It costs every agency a lot of money to business develop. You don’t win every pitch. It’s a very small percentage. And you hope that the ones you win make up for all the money you spent. When you’re offsetting that cost with speaking gigs, book deals, article writing and stuff like that, it’s really interesting that you’re creating this voice and building a platform and it actually is driving business, it’s driving revenue — both in terms of client and raw revenue. We get dollars to speak and write books. It’s not vanity.

It was always about creating equity in the brand, that would have one of two roles. That one day, we would be acquired. Or if we’re never acquired, we’re running this business in a way where all of the top players would want to acquire it. And there would be extreme value in the brand.

I like building businesses that build equity as they grow. And this channel of speaking, writing, etc — it wasn’t a core component of what we were acquired for, but it was definitely on the list.

DL: It reminds me of the Rolling Stones model, where you’re the front man, but ultimately, you share those profits evenly. I know they’ve credited that for their longevity as a band. It sounds like the same thing for the longevity of Twist, and now Mirum.

MJ: Yeah, and I try to not have it be ego-driven. I look at it like — my job, as a media entity, is to be extremely personable. And to know that I’m managing Mirum, Six Pixels and Mitch Joel. And I conduct myself accordingly. If you look me up on Facebook, there isn’t a ton of personal stuff. There’s a ton of personable stuff.

DL: If you had to give agencies who are looking to set themselves apart from the crowd and spur growth for both their clients and their own business one piece of advice, what would it be?

MJ: I really think it is much like a great book. A great book works not because the topic is unique. I feel like more often than not you’re reading a topic that somebody else covered in one shape or form.

It’s the voice. I don’t see that much in terms of agencies having that unique voice. Do I think we achieved it? Partially. And I think it’s because it’s a journey — you’re constantly changing it, moving it along. But if I were to go across — and we did this exercise when we were trying to figure out the branding for Mirum, Twist Image — I would jokingly tell people, “You could take the website of all our biggest competitors, take off the logos, throw them in the air, and whatever website they fall on, you’d still be pretty much right.” The services, types of case studies, type of work we do. And still to this day, I think that story rings true.

The ones that stand out, though, are the ones that have a unique voice. It could be a unique individual — I’m thinking of people like Bob Greenberg at R/GA. It could just be a unique story to tell. So if you look at an agency like WK, the fact that they’ve been large and independent, the type of work that they’ve done it’s like the voice of the agency is the work that they do. That type of thing is the only component of your business that you can have that is the defendable against a competitor. It’s how you express yourself, tell your stories, the type of team members you bring in, the type of work that you do, the stories you tell in the marketplace, where you network, what you attend. That’s the big one.

The secondary one is get involved in your industry. What  drove this business at Mirum was the fact that we got involved in places like Shop.org, the National Retail Federation, Canadian Marketing Association, Interactive Advertising — I could go on and on. And we didn’t just join and become members. We got involved. In fact, we just had a conversation at lunch about an association that I’m super interested in. And the answer we all came to was: “Not unless we can get deeply involved.” So, what you find out is that by giving (because you love this industry and you want it to be better), you do wind up in some way receiving. We don’t get involved to get results. By getting involved and being active, it just happens.

DL: Well Mitch, it’s always a real treat to talk shop with you. Thank you so much for taking the time.

MJ: My pleasure! Thanks for having me.

This transcript has been edited for length. Listen to more interviews with digital marketing experts on iTunes.

Read More:  

Mitch Joel on Why Agencies Should Care About Finding Their Unique Voice [INTERVIEW]

How to Start an Affiliate Program That’s Actually Successful

successful affiliate marketing program

“Affiliate marketing has made businesses millions and ordinary people millionaires.” So wrote Bo Bennett, the founder and CEO of eBookIt.com and president of Archieboy Holdings. He created one of the first web-based affiliate programs. The way affiliate marketing works is simple: it’s a performance-based advertising channel in which a business pays a commission for a conversion to one or more affiliates. The industry involves four players: brand, network, affiliate, and the customer. Not all of these players are always involved at the same time; some brands have an affiliate program and they manage the relationship with affiliates directly. In other…

The post How to Start an Affiliate Program That’s Actually Successful appeared first on The Daily Egg.

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How to Start an Affiliate Program That’s Actually Successful